[Cheiron]

changed subject by Cheiron from scots making subject "fanatasism" to "fanaticism" (I don't like people thinking I can't spell )

This may be too much for this forum (and please, administrators moderate it out if so), but anyway... what is a community without us all discussing some real concerns?.. and this is starting to p*** me and most danes off big time finally.

The background is the Danish newspaper that posted drawings of the Profet Muhammed... it has flared up again since they reposted it, and hell is breaking lose again. The issue is sorta between western freedom of speech and islamic fundamentalistic sensitivity and their use of it for political means. Complicated topic I know...

[translated by me (as acurately as I can) from DR (national danish broadcasting system]

Childrens Program threatens Muhammed cartoonist Kurt Westergaard
26. Feb 2008
The danish Muhammed-drawer Kurt Westergaard and the west gets threatened in a Hamas-childrensprogram.

The program is called "Hamas Childrens Show - The Pioneers of Tomorrow" and is sent in Gaza on al-Aqsa TV. The host is an innocent looking little girl and with a talking rabbit called Assud.

Western-hostile program overview
Theme of the childrens program is The Wests alledged scorn and crimes against Islam and specially against the profet Muhammed. In the program it is among other things said that Muhammed cartoonist Kurt Westergaard will not be able to hide anywhere. They will with Gods help (insallah) find him and kill him. Or others that might contribute to making images of Muhammed.

The 12 year old child host Saraa Barhoum and the rabbit "Assud" has two viewers on phone in the program, and they touch subjects as "The Wests attack on the Profet Muhammed", boycot of danish goods and not least what to do about cartoonist Kurt Westergaard.

"It will succeed in killing the cartoonist"
Here are two concrete extracts from the conversation in the program between the two hosts, Saraa and the rabbit Assud and a girl named Tasnim, who is on phone:

Saraa (child host to the rabbit Assud): What would you say to the cartoonist that is the cause of all this and insulted the profet by drawing him?

Assud (rabbit): He is a criminal.

Saraa: Yes, a criminal.

Tasnim (viewer): I say to him and all of them; Which ever way you try to hide him, we will succeed in killing him, finish him.

Assud: The will of Allah will be done.

Saraa: I pray that Allah will make the earth swallow him up so that his death can work as a warning for all others like him, Tasnim.

The program is very conveniently ended with the host, Saraa, asking Assud what it would like to say to Kurt Westergaard:

Assud: I say to him, what you already have said: You criminal, you scum (...) With the help of Allah the day will come where you will regret what you have done.

The rabbit is the latest tv-star that Hamas has invented. Earlier a talking bee by name of Nahoul and a Mickey Mouse copy by name of Farfur entertained palestinian children about Israel and the western worlds crimes against Islam.

[end of translation]

Now.. I dunno what to say, but this is a childrens program... while I was translating this they pulled the link to the actual program from DR, prolly due to political concerns to not step on anyones toes... but ... I bet if you do a youtube.com search for "Assud" you can get some pretty provocative examplifications.

As said, ... it just p***** me off majorly, using children like this.

End of story
_________________
Cheiron
______________________________
"Any scientist with respect for himself should start
the day by rejecting his own pet hypotheses".
(Konrad Lorenz)

"Wir müssen wissen
Wir werden wissen"
(David Hilbert)

[Scotsman]

No Cheiron, not to much. I like to see serious topics of discussion along with the fun.

Frankly, the more I hear about these zealots, the more I am convinced they should have there own little country. With a nice high wall around it, nobody comes out, and they just leave the rest of us alone.

I have no use for anyone trying to ram their set of superstitions down my throat in general, and I REALLY have no use for someone trying to do it with the barrel of a gun. At that point I start shooting back.

Some of this stemming from news articles I keep reading about the religous police in middle eastern countries doing things like arresting female american citizens because they went to a starbucks with their male coworkers.

The more of this I hear, the more I say get ALL our people out of there and let those idiots kill each other if that's what they want to do, just don't let any of them get out to the civilized world. And for all our sakes don't let them have anything nuclear. They've amply demonstrated their politics are not stable enough to be trusted with anything that could remotely be turned into the bomb.

Oh, and as to the nut job president of Iran, USE YOUR BRAIN IDIOT. We crushed the iraqi military in a few weeks, which you hadn't been able to do in years. What do you think is going to happen you piss us off sufficiently we come after you? Our problem right now is after smashing that country we've gotten ourselves bogged down in "rebuilding" it. Sorry, the nut jobs want to keep shooting at us, it's not worth it. Either walk away and leave them to their own devices, or bomb the cities to a sheet of glass so they can't be a threat again and then walk away. Ok a tad extream, but my patience is at an end with these fools.

[George]

I must begin this with a understanding of one or more plain thoughts:

First of all, there are places in the world that do not hold life very dear. So by our western standards..the things that they do and the thought process they use seem barbaric to us. The culture that they live under and maintain is harsh and unyielding when compared to western ideas or ideals. So the western response is usually shock..dismay.and revulsion.

Second of all and here I am talking about the muslim religion, the people who profess this religion range from the more secular to the very extreme fanatics. Western civilizations have had their own religious extremes. However, when these governments are run by such religious zealots and extremists using their religion as a basis for governing, there is a great tendency to deny a people a reasonable chance of a good life. The religion that they use is biblical in nature and tends to be very unrealistic and unyielding for modern times. There seems to be no give and take with it. So it is their way or the highway. The Koran may profess love for all but I don't see it being applied. This is how it seems to me anyway.

Thirdly, when these people who use their religion as a means for causing death to the innocent it is appalling. But, they can say the same of western responses. Their children and women have been killed so they see it as an eye for an eye. The area we are talking about, the middle east has been the scene of carnage down through the ages. Still, the innocent suffer. The children who are sent to be a suicide bomber. Another child who is buying some sweets at a market is blown up by that bomb along with the mother. This I do not understand..the killing of one another for no other reason then being told by another person that their actions will result in their martydom . This I will not understand.

Finally, I have tried to make some sense of what I see going on in that part of the world. And I have come to this conclusion. We, as westerners, will never understand these people. We have no real concrete program for helping them. We cannot not try to push democracy on them. Their culture and their religion for the most part will prohibit it. And they sit on top of the bulk of oil reserves in the world, so our hands are tied. To send our troops there to fight and die is not worth the lack of response we have gotten from the people in that region.Stage our troops close by...but remove them from the region.It is the real sore point for them in the middle east. I will try to be tolerant of their beliefs as long as they are as tolerant for mine..However, it is becoming increasing hard for me to be.........................understanding.
_________________
I left reality a long time ago. I just have not told anybody yet

[Cheiron]

On the whole I agree with you, George.

Here's what got me angry (the death threats is at end of clip), and remember this is a childrens program... sigh..

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PM9koI3cVcY

It's not that I am so naive that it surprised me, I've just had enough now of it all.

We had two weeks of carburning, bombs in various places etc in Denmark, prolly made by young people with other ethnic origin who inflame and inspire eachother, and prolly majorly inspired by adults, hence this topic to draw attention to how they indoctrinate and use children (it doesn't seem to be organized though).... but enough is enough.

Even our leading left wing party leader from Socialistisk Folkeparti went public with a very strong statement that he had enough and the damn idiots should go back to where they came from if they feel so strongly against a free democratic society with social wellfare, oportunities for education etc. and want a totalitarian opressive state based on principles that belong in the medieval ages.

Luckily so far, there has been no casualties... but it's looking more and more like a question of time.

In my work in airport I many times had to guard a left bag or something, that looked suspicious and could be a bomb, calling Operation Center over radio and waiting for bombsquad to come and check it out, discreetly warding off passengers without them panicking, but of course telling a mom with two kids playing nearby that she prolly should go erhm... elsewhere with her kids... well the dilated pupils etc and the rush to get away usually is sign of concern .... luckily it never was a bomb (or I would prolly not be writing this), but as you can imagine, I didn't like it one bit, nearly "sitting" on a possible bomb is not my idea of a fun day at work.. Call me selfish, but I've always been partial about my body, especially that it stays in one piece... it makes me look sooo much better on the dancefloor on a friday night.
_________________
Cheiron
______________________________
"Any scientist with respect for himself should start
the day by rejecting his own pet hypotheses".
(Konrad Lorenz)

"Wir müssen wissen
Wir werden wissen"
(David Hilbert)

[Cheiron]

[Scotsman]

Oh I don't dispute there are murderous zealots of many flavors. The middle east just seems to be the current hot spot for it.

Thus my desire for someplace to put them all where they can do as they will and leave the rest of the world out of their insanity.

[Jade]

good grief , pass the Tylenol, this makes Barney look good imagine your kids watching that hour after hour..it explains a lot
Headcases as we would say here, scary at any age
Jade
i'm with Scots ..build a big wall, quarantine.

[Cheiron]

a little addendum about latest developments:

An art exhibition in Berlin has been censored due to a poster that affronted local muslims. The exhibition was actually a broad comment about fanaticism, and well.. among other things there was one with an astronaut at moon with an israeli flag, in all the jews should be those that would feel provoked the most.. etc... but there was one with the holy stone in mekka with a headline: "Dummer Steine" (stupid stone). Forceful entry into gallery and threats about attacks made the gallery close it for now and remove that item.

In Netherlands the director of a new movie about islamic extremism has been urged to withdraw it before publication by... the government ! (of course the assasination of the dutch director of another movie is contributing to dutch political caution) The director of the movie said: Go <insert four letter word here> yourself.

The danish cartoonist had this comment: Hey, I urge the german and dutch folks not to back down, it is a slippery slope. We provide muslims with freedom to practise their religion, they can have islamic schools, they are free to do what they want, but excuse me... we live in a democracy with freedom of speech.
He is btw living in hiding with bodyguards...just like Salman Rushdie.

Meanwhile news is that Danish Foreign Affairs office is working late hours currently, very late....

It seems this will be a matter of principle between west and east and that this time the lines are drawn up, more and more europeans will not tolerate getting gagged due to threats... sigh. If they think they can change our democracy that we fought for through the ages with blood, sweat and tears...think again.. But prolly 80% of islamic leaders find the whole thing stupid too..so, it is the extremistic few that creates the turmoil and lack of concrete info inflames the masses, but well... since they let it proliferate, I guess they find use for it for internal political purposes, and give shit about respecting us while being so tight assed about their own holy horses.

on that note... exit with me humming Frank Zappa: "Dumb all over"
_________________
Cheiron
______________________________
"Any scientist with respect for himself should start
the day by rejecting his own pet hypotheses".
(Konrad Lorenz)

"Wir müssen wissen
Wir werden wissen"
(David Hilbert)

[mimee]

as you know Che , i normally don't get into these political debates ( )
We , in the Western world will never understand or get into the minds of the radical muslims.......... they teach their children , under the guise of their religion, that ppl other than muslims are evil.... you cant expect anything but the kids to grow up radicals too.............they get no education of the outside world ....... they only know that they are to kill the ppl not muslims......
is a sad thing .......we have seen this for many many years and will never be able to change it.. so why try ?? i agree with Scots maybe they can have their own little island to preach all their hate....... other than that this debate has no end.......... hell maybe we can give them Gitmo....... this may sound like i think we should become isolationists, but if if were up to me no arab muslim would come to this country to reap the benefits of our education system ,, only to go back to their country and plot to annihilalate us. People have used religion to justify too much destruction in this world. (bangs head on desk)
need a tylenol Jade

Mimee

[Cheiron]

[Cheiron]

In all fairness... good news that warms !

Palestinians are making a petition to the Egyptian Broadcasting network that hosts the childrens program with the infamous rabbit etc.

So far they got 170.000 palestinians to sign petition to close or change the program because they find it way out of line. Their goal is to reach 1 million signatures that will be sent to the satellite broadcasting company.

Islam, Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, whatever... there are good people everywhere, and we are just inhabiting same rock in space really, and should respect eachother, it warms to see that irrational hatred can be subdued by common sense.
_________________
Cheiron
______________________________
"Any scientist with respect for himself should start
the day by rejecting his own pet hypotheses".
(Konrad Lorenz)

"Wir müssen wissen
Wir werden wissen"
(David Hilbert)

[Rawhide]

Thanks for having a specific topic Che.(and no personally I dont think its out of bounds for us to talk about)
We see this sort of intolerant behavior more and more. Children are brainwashed from an early age. No civilized person can defend Islmamic extremism.
These people have made the western world the great devil. Demonizing us to the point that anything we do or say is twisted. Taking a cartoon out of context, threatening English authors, telling people to kill in Allas name. The real tragedy in this particular case though is what Che points out. Using a child,,passing hatred into a new generation from early age. We do not know how to defend against this because the culture is alien to us. We in the western world sometimes cant remember that these people, are so acculturized in differrent ways than us its almost like living next to a different species. At times I think we need to start real extra terrestial study on part of our own specie.We say "Islamic Extremist" but what we mean is. Some folks that want to kill all of us for reasons beyond our understanding.I pity our grand children, this world is headed towards being completely divided and I doubt pithy sayings or the rhetoric of the past will stop it. Yes I know this sounds apocaliptic,,,welll,,,,,anyway,,,,hugggs and am glad we can disscuss it anyway,,,,,Raw

[Jade]

i think the most hideous and truly evil part of all this is indoctrinating kids with that infernal rabbit. i think of my 4 year old grandson and if he was exposed to such hatred and intolerance under the guise of entertainment, i would be furious.
sorry Mims Tyelonol all gone
i also think throwing out the t.v. would cut down on the expense of headache meds which lets face it has got to be huge and just might save some of these poor kids from growing up with such a misguided attitude. but who knows as mims says its impossible to get into the minds of these people, i don't even want to
Jade